MelbourNomic

Play by Email games in progress.
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christianmoura
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MelbourNomic

Post by christianmoura » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:09 pm

NEW PLAYERS ARE WELCOME TO JOIN

Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic


Players & Score
Players & score
1 - bsmith: 3 points
2 - redturtle: 10 points
3 - Stompy: 20 points
4 - Jeff: 11 points
5 - tbb1978: zero points
6 - randy: zero points
Last edited by christianmoura on Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:22 am, edited 7 times in total.

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christianmoura
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Post by christianmoura » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:10 pm

Initial Set of Rules for e-mail Nomic (by Chuck Carroll)


Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect,
in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the
Initial Set are in effect at the beginning of the first game.
The Initial Set consists of rules 101-116 (immutable) and
201-219 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the
200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted
(that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may
be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules
in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. At any time, each player shall be either a Voter or the Speaker; no
player may simultaneously be a Voter and a Speaker. At any time,
there shall be exactly one Speaker. The term "player" in the rules
shall specifically include both the Voters and the Speaker.

104. The Speaker for the first game shall be christianmoura.

105. A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal,
or amendment of a mutable rule; or (2) the transmutation
of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.
(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new
rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable,
may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are
mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be
transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

106. All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on.
They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number
of votes and quorum is achieved.

107. Any proposed rule change must be written down (or otherwise
communicated in print media) before it is voted on. If adopted, it
must guide play in the form in which it was voted on.

108. No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the
completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording
explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive
application.

109. The Speaker shall give each proposed rule change a number for
reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change
proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive
integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.
If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the
proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it
receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it.

110. Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules
may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among votes
legally cast. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be
stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

111. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the
immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be
entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to
transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable
rule.

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered
from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The
magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed,
and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be
enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than
continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than
losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of
rule changes must never become completely inpermissible.

115. Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply
rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even
rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible.
No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of
the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted
and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules,
which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or
implicitly permits it.




Mutable rules


201. Quorum for a proposed rule change is defined to be 20% of Voters
at the beginning of the prescribed voting period for that proposal.

202. All players begin with 0 points. Points may not be gained, lost, or
traded except as explicitly stated in the rules.

203. The winner is the first Voter to achieve 100 (positive) points.
If more than one Voter achieves this condition simultaneously, all
such Voters win.
When a game ends in this manner:
-If there is only one winner, that Voter becomes the Speaker, and
the old Speaker becomes a Voter
-If there is more than one winner, the Speaker randomly selects
one of the winners, who becomes the new Speaker, and the old
Speaker becomes a Voter.
-All players' scores are reset to 0.
-A new game is begun. All rules and proposed rule changes retain
the status they had at the end of the old game.

204. A proposal shall be made by submitting it to the Speaker. Only
Voters may make proposals. As soon as possible after receiving
a proposal, the Speaker shall assign the proposal a number and
distribute the proposal along with its number to all players.

205. The prescribed voting period for a proposal shall be one week,
beginning at the time the Speaker distributes the proposal to all
players.

206. Each Voter has exactly one vote. The Speaker may not vote.

207. Voters may vote either for or against any proposal within its
prescribed voting period. In order to be legally cast, the vote
must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescribed voting
period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the
prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within
the prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

208. At the end of the prescribed voting period on a proposal, the
Speaker shall reveal all votes legally cast on that proposal. If
the Speaker's consent may be required for a proposal to be adopted,
then the Speaker should indicate at that time whether or not e gives
eir consent. If the Speaker does not explicitly indicate that e
refuses to consent to the proposal, it shall be assumed that e
consents.

209. The required votes for a proposal to be adopted is as follows:
For a proposal which would directly alter the actions which are
required of and/or forbidden to the Speaker:
a) a simple majority of all votes legally cast, if the
Speaker consents;
b) a 2/3 majority of all votes legally cast, if the
Speaker does not consent;
For all other proposals, a simple majority of votes legally cast.
This rule defers to rules which set the required number of votes
for proposals which propose to transmute a rule.

210. An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the
completion of the vote that adopted it.

211. Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 10
points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive
a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players
whose proposals are not adopted shall lose 10 points.

212. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if
two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule
with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.
If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself
that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence
over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall
supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.
If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or
defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

213. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the
interpretation or application of a rule, then a player may invoke
judgement by submitting a statement for judgement to the Speaker.
Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the
insistence of any player. When judgement is invoked, the Speaker
must, as soon as possible, select a Judge as described in the Rules.
The Speaker must then distribute the statement to be judged, along
with the identity of the Judge, to all players.

214. If judgement was invoked by a Voter, then the first Judge to be
selected to judge that statement shall be the Speaker. If judgement
was invoked by the Speaker, the first Judge to be selected shall be
a randomly selected Voter.
In all cases, if a Judge beyond the first must be selected to judge
a statement, it shall be a randomly selected Voter. The Voter thus
selected may not be the player most recently selected as Judge for
that statement, nor may e be the player who invoked judgement.

215. After the Speaker has distributed the statement to be judged and the
identity of the Judge, the Judge has one week in which to deliver a
legal judgement. If the Judge fails to deliver a judgement within
this time, e is penalized 10 points and a new Judge is selected.
A judgement is delivered by submitting that judgement to the
Speaker, who must then distribute that judgement to all players
as soon as possible.

216. A legal judgement is either TRUE, FALSE, or UNDECIDED. The
judgement may be accompanied by reasons and arguments, but such
reasons and arguments form no part of the judgement itself. If a
judgement is accompanied by reasons and arguments, the Speaker must
distribute the reasons and arguments along with the judgement.

217. All judgements must be in accordance with the rules; however, if
the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the statement
to be judged, then the Judge shall consider game custom and the
spirit of the game before applying other standards.

218. In addition to duties which may be listed elsewhere in the rules,
the Speaker shall have the following duties:
-register new players
-maintain a list of all players and their current scores, and
make such a list available to all players
-maintain a complete list of the current rules, and make such a
list available to all players
-make a random determination whenever such determination is
required by the rules.

219. If a player believes that the rules are such that further play is
impossible, or that the legality of a move cannot be determined with
finality, or that a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the
player may invoke judgement on a statement to that effect. If the
statement is judged TRUE, then the player who invoked judgement
shall be declared the winner of that game, and the game ends, with
no provision for starting another game.
This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the
winner of the game.


301. Gaming Points [rejected 03/02/07]
Players have an additional score called Melbourne Gamer Points (MGP). 5 MGP will be awarded to a player who obtains victory over another Nomic player/players in any single game outside of MelbourNomic. The loser of such a game will gain 2 MGP. Should a draw occur, each player will gain 2 MGP.
All players start the game with 0 MGP, should a player reach 100 MGP e immediately wins the game of Nomic. [proposed bsmith]


302. Late Proposal Penalty [accepted 03/02/07]
Players are required to submit at least one rule proposal per week before the Speaker makes them public for voting. Failure to do so will incur a 5 point penalty. [proposed bsmith]

303. Melbourne Gamer Dollars [accepted 03/02/07]
Every player starts with 10,000 Melbourne Gamers Dollars (MGD). A player may freely trade their MGDs between other players by notifying receiving players and the speaker of the amount to be traded. The amount of MGDs each player has will be recorded by the speaker.


Rules to be voted on

304. National Anthem
MelbourNomic is a fine leafy place to live, with beaut views of the bay. It should be a proud place. Therefore it should have a National Anthem.

(to the tune of the star spangled banner)

MelbourNomic, greatest Nomic in the world. All other Nomic are run by little girls.

MelbourNomic number one exporter of proposals. Other Nomics have inferior proposals.

MelbourNomic, home of Tinshein swimming pool. Its length thirty metre and width six metre. Filtration system a marvel to behold. It remove eighty percent of human solid waste.

MelbourNomic, MelbourNomic, you very nice place, from plains of Tarashek to northern fence of Jewtown. MelbourNomic, friend of all except Uzbekistan. They very nosey people with bone in their brain.
[proposed by randy]


305. To alter mutable rule 218
218. In addition to duties which may be listed elsewhere in the rules,
the Speaker shall have the following duties:
-register new players
-maintain a list of all players and their current scores, and
make such a list available to all players
-the list of players shall be in alphabetical order.
-maintain a complete list of the current rules, and make such a
list available to all players
-make a random determination whenever such determination is
required by the rules.
[proposed by randy]

306. Politiking
When voting, the convention of PMing the vote will still be a necessity via secret ballot. A further necessity will be that some form of public notification must be made by the voter on all votes they make which may or may not be the same as the vote they made via PM.
e.g.
PM
301 = Yes
302 = Yes
303 = No

Public
301 = No
302 = Yes
303 = Yes
[proposed by tbb1978]
Last edited by christianmoura on Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:31 am, edited 8 times in total.

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TaleSpinner
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Post by TaleSpinner » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:26 am

Dear gawd, this sounds like hard-assed Fluxx! :p

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bsmith
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Post by bsmith » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:17 pm

Maybe they were playing Nomic when they came up with ASL!

Put my name down for this thanks Christian.

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redturtle
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Post by redturtle » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:51 pm

do i have to read all of that?

I got halfway and started skimming :)

sign me up.
Get a grip!

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bsmith
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Post by bsmith » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:59 pm

redturtle wrote:do i have to read all of that?

I got halfway and started skimming :)

sign me up.
Yeah I skimmed after halfway too. My first proposal will be to eliminate half the rules! :lol:

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Stompy
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Post by Stompy » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:06 pm

ok I'm in.
I guess I'd better read the rules :lol:

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jeff
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Post by jeff » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:50 pm

Ok, sounds like fun. may need a special forum for it even.

One thread for rules.
One thread for players.
One thread for discussion.

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TaleSpinner
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Post by TaleSpinner » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:22 pm

jeff wrote:Ok, sounds like fun. may need a special forum for it even.

One thread for rules.
One thread for players.
One thread for discussion.
One thread to rule them all! ;)

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jeff
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Post by jeff » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:30 pm

TaleSpinner wrote:
jeff wrote:Ok, sounds like fun. may need a special forum for it even.

One thread for rules.
One thread for players.
One thread for discussion.
One thread to rule them all! ;)
I forgot I was dealing with geeks here! :P

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christianmoura
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Post by christianmoura » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:42 pm

Thanks for the interest guys, if you get into this game, it can be a lot of fun. The rules might seem extensive, but can be summarised quite simply:

*I am the moderator (speaker). All players are voters.

*Voters submit (rule) proposals, as many as they want.

*Some rules are immutable, and some mutable. Mutable rules can be deleted or amended. Immutable ones cannot, but there can be proposals to change immutables to mutables, and vice-versa.

*Submissions are made to myself by PM. I will set some time for proposals to come in, and then broadcast all proposals to players who have 1 week (one game turn) to debate and vote on proposals (by PM). During this week new proposals can be made for the next game turn, which immediately starts once the first turn proposals have been voted on.

Whomever reaches 100 points wins. You get random points for getting proposals approved. You lose points for having them rejected.

All the rules above, of course, are subject to change. Players can be as creative or crazy as they want. Often players will win by finding a loophole in the rules that allows them to be exploited for victory, or finding some incongruence/paradox where one rule cannot exist with the other. The second victory condition is that whoever spots such a paradox, and gets a successful judgement on it, wins.

Most of the mutable rules refer to judgements where there are inconsistent rules - you do not need to worry about them at first, until such a situation occurs.

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christianmoura
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Post by christianmoura » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:25 pm

Alright, we have four players. We can start. Other players can join in at anytime (while there aren't any rules in place forbidding this!)

You guys can submit proposals via PM to me. I encourage new rules to have a name, but that is not mandatory.

The first one week round will start Saturday morning (say midday, or whenever I wake up), where I will broadcast all submitted proposals an open them to voting.

During this time you can freely discuss your own proposals openly, but only the ones submitted to me via PM will be considered by THE SPEAKER (that's me).

The longest game of Nomic, Agora, has been going on for 13 years. I checked out their list of the rules, and stopped at the first rule - which is simply an ASCII map or Australia, with geographical sites such as Manuborne in Victoria and the Goethe Barrier Reef.

http://agora.lendemaindeveille.com/inde ... al_Ruleset

Another Nomic I checked out assigned a character class to each player (Rogue, Thief, Mage and Warrior) and hit points. I didn't read long enough to understand why or for what reason, but I am sure there was a purpose...

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bsmith
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Post by bsmith » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:37 pm

Some draft proposals. Does anyone have a problem with these?

Gaming Points
Players have an additional score called Melbourne Gamer Points (MGP). 5 MGP will be awarded to a player who obtains victory over another Nomic player/players in any single game outside of MelbourNomic. The loser of such a game will gain 2 MGP. Should a draw occur, each player will gain 2 MGP.
All players start the game with 0 MGP, should a player reach 100 MGP e immediately wins the game of Nomic.

Late Proposal Penalty
Players are required to submit at least one rule proposal per week before the Speaker makes them public for voting. Failure to do so will incur a 5 point penalty.

tbb1978
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Post by tbb1978 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:57 pm

Sounds Interesting....If I sign up for the game and find that I am putting my life on hold or get peeved with it all will I be spurned by all and sundry? If not...Then sign me up

Ty

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christianmoura
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Post by christianmoura » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:06 pm

tbb1978 wrote:Sounds Interesting....If I sign up for the game and find that I am putting my life on hold or get peeved with it all will I be spurned by all and sundry? If not...Then sign me up

Ty
Getting peeved and putting you on hold should entitle you to extra points. Anyway, I've signed you up.

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